Over 10,000 Civilians Killed during Russian
Siege of Mariupol, Mayor Claims
National Review,
by
Zachary Evans
Original Article
Posted By: Dreadnought,
4/11/2022 2:45:58 PM
The mayor of Mariupol, Ukraine, said Monday that more than 10,000 civilians have died during the Russian siege and subsequent occupation of the city.
Mayor Vadym Boychenko warned that the final civilian death toll could exceed 20,000 in a phone call with the Associated Press, and said that corpses were “carpeted through the streets.” Boychenko also claimed Russian forces had brought mobile crematoriums to the city.
“Mobile crematoriums have arrived in the form of trucks: You open it, and there is a pipe inside and these bodies are burned,” Boychenko said.
Meanwhile, about 120,000 civilians remain in the city and are in need of food and water,
Reply 1 - Posted by:
MDConservative 4/11/2022 2:49:19 PM (No. 1125561)
OK, maybe…maybe not. Who do you trust? Frankly, both sides are master propagandists.
21 people like this.
Reply 2 - Posted by:
planetgeo 4/11/2022 2:56:34 PM (No. 1125563)
While one can legitimately question the specific details provided by both sides in this conflict, there is absolutely no question about one aspect: the totally barbaric targeting of civilians and entire civilian sections of the Ukrainian cities by the Russians. They are being brutally leveled with unconscionable destruction. There is no logical equivalence or justifiable conflation here.
The Russians are acting like savages. And their actions against civilians are indeed war crimes and should be ultimately accountable as such,
14 people like this.
Reply 3 - Posted by:
marbles 4/11/2022 3:22:58 PM (No. 1125588)
Not buying. Bodies carpeting the city ? Where are the photographs? Mobile crematoriums? That's from an 8 year old YouTube video. This is the second time this propaganda has been run and been debunked.
21 people like this.
Reply 4 - Posted by:
Jagermeister 4/11/2022 3:30:41 PM (No. 1125593)
Those posting about "Nazis" running Ukraine and "both sides" engaging in EQUIVALENT propaganda are idiots. The Ukrainians might be attempting propaganda, but there is only ONE side with non-government journalists checking up on what they say, and it isn't the Russian side. I have yet to see ONE independent news outlet posting from the Russian side of the conflict. Keep that in mind when it comes to evaluating who are the master propagandists.
I'm not sure who these trolls are attempting to convince. By minimizing Russian intentions and actions, and massively fabricating stories of Ukraine being run by Nazis and staging massacres, they only discredit there narrative.
You can post or comment reasoned discussions of "isolationists" versus "Wilsonians", and you will be adding to the discussion. But when you post that you'd prefer Putin to Zelenskyy, or support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, you just make yourself look like a fool. That or a amoral monster.
14 people like this.
Reply 5 - Posted by:
TnEm 4/11/2022 3:43:01 PM (No. 1125597)
If you think this is not true, you should read about Putin and Checknya in 2000. Putin flattened the place and killed 10s of thousands of civilians and then installed a puppet government. You think Putin wouldn't do it again? Do you think the Russians/Soviets have had a change of heart since the 1950's? Do you really believe Russian/Soviets care about anybody? Communists do not care about human beings.
10 people like this.
Reply 6 - Posted by:
Quigley 4/11/2022 3:48:32 PM (No. 1125601)
In this day and age, which news outlets are independent news outlets? And how do I determine that? American news outlets said for two years that Trump was putin’s agent. 51 US former “intel” people said huncher’s laptop was Russisn disinformation. The biden family was looting Ukraine.
Which independent news agencies debunked those stories in real time? The NY Post certainly tried to carry the laptop story.
But who can i trust and how do i know i can trust them?
12 people like this.
Reply 7 - Posted by:
Jagermeister 4/11/2022 3:59:53 PM (No. 1125605)
"How do I know who to trust?"
My humble suggestion, is trust no one, but read widely. In a case like the Ukraine v. Russia conflict, try Indian or Israeli sources. Both those countries are trying to walk the line between the two. Or Turkish sources. Almost everyone has an English language outlet, and they often have more nuanced views. Doesn't mean I trust them implicitly, but I've found foreign media to carry a broader range of opinion. BBC. DW (Deutsche Welle). All grist for the mill.
When I was a History major I learned that EVERYONE has an ax to grind. But by reading them all, and taking their biases into account, it can be possible to piece together a picture that begins to approximate the "truth". Oh, and never believe ANYONE who claims to have the "TRUTH". (Including me).
11 people like this.
Reply 8 - Posted by:
TexaTucky 4/11/2022 4:11:17 PM (No. 1125617)
#7, that is wise counsel to #4. You should post more often. You apparently understand those of us who question the so-called non-government journalists who did all that "checking-up" before they told us the last lie. And the one before that.
By the way, it's worth noting that no one who's questioning the narrative are, in turn, creating one instead. No one here prefers Putin to Zelensky. No one here supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine. No one here minimizes or fabricates. We're Ldotters seeking truth, so we tend to doubt what's hand-fed to us and we ask questions. Hardly deserving of ad hominems like 'troll', 'idiot', or 'fool'.
11 people like this.
Reply 9 - Posted by:
Rich323 4/11/2022 4:12:18 PM (No. 1125618)
Ok, if the Nazis killed thousands of Russians in WWII and now occupy eastern Ukraine, do the Russians have any reason to even the score? Unless we know the answer to this, we do not understand the Ukraine issue.
3 people like this.
Reply 10 - Posted by:
DVC 4/11/2022 4:23:52 PM (No. 1125624)
Blowing up buildings with people living in them causes a lot of deaths and injuries. And with damaged medical infrastructure, a lot of people who could have been saved, are not saved.
The Russians have been vicious, brutal butchers on the battlefield since the 1500s, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
6 people like this.
Reply 11 - Posted by:
Jagermeister 4/11/2022 4:27:32 PM (No. 1125627)
Apologies to #8, and those of a similar frame of mind. I really don't mean to paint with so broad a brush.
Unfortunately, there ARE some who post explicitly that they support the Russian invasion. It is only those who I label 'troll', 'idiot', and 'fool'.
Please accept my sincere apologies for letting my emotions get the better of me, and being careless in my descriptions.
6 people like this.
Reply 12 - Posted by:
LC Chihuahua 4/11/2022 4:48:19 PM (No. 1125643)
Ten thousand dead in Mariupol? I believe there are plenty dead, and Russia did it. Why? Who else could have done it? I refuse to believe Ukraine murdered thousands of its civilians. It never happened? The evidence begs to differ.
I don't understand why so many are turning a blind eye to what Putin has done. He's a bad guy. Standing up to Biden, and beating up crony of Biden does NOT make him a good guy.
As far as I'm concerned there are no good guys here, and the best thing that can happen is this war ENDS.
6 people like this.
Reply 13 - Posted by:
happywarrior 4/11/2022 5:04:33 PM (No. 1125656)
#4, if you're going to continue to call fellow posters idiots, trolls, and fools I think it's time you leave this salon. Reading your insults is tiresome.
7 people like this.
Reply 14 - Posted by:
WI Cynic 4/11/2022 5:18:55 PM (No. 1125666)
"I refuse to believe Ukraine murdered thousands of its civilians." The thing is, that's exactly what the Ukrainian government has been doing for 8 years in the Donbass, where the Ukrainian citizens are overwhelmingly ethnic Russian.
I don't think anyone involved in this, from the break-away Donbass republics, through Ukraine, up through Russia has clean hands. I *do* think that Europe has a vested interest in sorting this out, while the United States does not. I *do* think it was triggered at least in part of Biden's venality and weakness. I *do* think we'd be unwise to start a land war against a nuclear-armed land power on their own border, while having to cross the borders of innumerable feckless "allies"... who seem unwilling to do anything about the situation on their own doorstep.
9 people like this.
Reply 15 - Posted by:
marbles 4/11/2022 5:33:52 PM (No. 1125671)
# 12 What evidence are you referring to? Or are you doing satire?
1 person likes this.
Reply 16 - Posted by:
Granddanny 4/11/2022 5:36:15 PM (No. 1125672)
National Review quoting one side on conflict. There is nothing trustworthy in that.
5 people like this.
Reply 17 - Posted by:
Jagermeister 4/11/2022 5:43:37 PM (No. 1125676)
#13, My remarks are targeted to a small set of particular people who blindly parrot Russian disinformation. Those people I do consider idiots, fools, or trolls. Or worse, amoral monsters who endorse the slaughter of innocent people in a war of aggression for some twisted reason of their own. Now, if you want to identify with that group, then go ahead. I read equivalent insults daily, and do not see your complaints. So, I consider your remark to be a prime example of situational ethics, and discount it completely.
There is a difference between considered skepticism and whole-hearted endorsement of the Russian party line. And it is usually obvious who belongs to which group. I try to be targeted in my comments, but precision isn't always achieved. If you are part of the first group, then I apologize for "collateral damage". If you are part of the second group, then my insults are intentional, and in my opinion, deserved.
8 people like this.
Reply 18 - Posted by:
Jagermeister 4/11/2022 6:19:50 PM (No. 1125695)
#13, I don't mean to assign you to any particular group, so please don't take it that way.
In the original article, there is a link to an AP story, from early in the conflict (March 16), that contains descriptions of individual deaths in Mariupol. Now, I don't know is the article's claim of 10,000 is true. It could be a massive exaggeration. But when I read the AP article about the deaths of the children, and I have no reason to doubt their first hand reporting of the individuals, then I get angry. Yes, there could be disinformation and propaganda about "massacres" and "war crimes". But it is indisputable that some people are dying. Some of them are civilians. Some of them are children. And those individuals did not deserve to die.
Now, I don't know the best way to stop this way. And there are many opinions about how it started, and for what reasons, and those are all worthy of discussion. But I can't get over the individual deaths. And I have no patience for those who I perceive as minimizing their deaths. Yes, we can discuss best ways forward and all that, but I beg people not to lose sight of the victims.
So, if you are an honest poster, I please ask you to understand the source of my ire and to forgive my excess. I'll try to be more specific in the future. I am NOT trying to insult those who have differing opinions and who post in good faith. I hope you understand.
6 people like this.
Reply 19 - Posted by:
Kate318 4/11/2022 6:21:42 PM (No. 1125697)
#4,11 &17: Apparently, the only “reasonable discussion” is what you will allow. Do I understand that correctly? And by “reasonable discussion” does that mean calling other posters “fools” and “idiots?” You can pontificate and take up bandwidth with your numerous, pompous, arrogant posts, but keep in mind that many of those “trolls” have been on this website a lot longer than you. That is, unless you’re just a retread, which is a distinct possibility. Nothing got away from you. You make a habit of belittling those who disagree with you. I wholeheartedly agree with #13.
3 people like this.
Reply 20 - Posted by:
MDConservative 4/11/2022 6:24:19 PM (No. 1125698)
#4 posted: “Those posting about "Nazis" running Ukraine and "both sides" engaging in EQUIVALENT propaganda are idiots.”
#11: “ Unfortunately, there ARE some who post explicitly that they support the Russian invasion. It is only those who I label 'troll', 'idiot', and 'fool'.”
#17: “ My remarks are targeted to a small set of particular people who blindly parrot Russian disinformation. Those people I do consider idiots, fools, or trolls.”
Keep digging…that hole is only getting deeper.
5 people like this.
Below, you will find ...
Most Recent Articles posted by "Dreadnought"
and
Most Active Articles (last 48 hours)