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One Year Later, A Conservative Case for Ukraine

Original Article

Posted By: DVC, 2/22/2023 11:52:12 AM

The Ukrainians have not only held their own, but have managed to liberate a good chunk of their conquered territory. They’ve been buoyed tremendously by a constant influx of Western military aid. I argue here, against a small but vocal conservative faction, that we should continue this aid. There has been plenty of unhelpful hyperbole on both sides of the debate. Prominent pro-Ukrainers have attempted to equate opposition to Ukrainian aid as opposition to democracy itself. Michael Beschloss, NBC’s resident Rent-A-Zinn, referencing members of Congress who didn’t applaud Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s recent speech, and in Stalinist fashion, tweeted “we need to know from them exactly why.”


I wonder how many LDotters will even bother to read his discussion of the issue? Seems like so many very closed minds here on this topic, sad to say.

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Reply 1 - Posted by: Mcscow sailor 2/22/2023 12:03:05 PM (No. 1409254)
Interesting that this author would use the example of afghanistan as doing the right thing
25 people like this.

Reply 2 - Posted by: Nashman 2/22/2023 12:08:54 PM (No. 1409258)
I read it all. It's a good read. Having read it with an open mind I still say we should send no more money at all. None. There needs to be peace talks. But you can't launder money if there are peace talks. You can't keep paying crooked people off. Oh... along with no more money, there needs to be an accounting of the money we've sent. Every dime. It's not our war. Never was, even though Biden's weakness and stupidity allowed the Russians to walk in. We're already paying enough for Biden's other follies.
48 people like this.

Reply 3 - Posted by: MissMann 2/22/2023 12:14:39 PM (No. 1409268)
I can't put it better than the second poster. What I know is that they impeached a president to keep the grift hidden. A grift that involves both parties and is bankrupting our beloved country. No more money, no more arms, a full accounting of where past funds have gone.
41 people like this.

Reply 4 - Posted by: Quigley 2/22/2023 12:15:40 PM (No. 1409270)
I read it. There’s no argument in the article. The points are: 1. $100 B is not that much money, just a rounding error. Besides, we’d just spend it on liberal causes like climate change; much better to knee cap Russia. 2. Isolationism is bad. Past wars were good. Eg, WW2. Austria in 1938 is analogous. 3. There haven’t been any nukes yet. Putin wouldn’t dare. 4. Just because the Dims like this war doesn’t mean we should knee jerk dislike it. 5. Ukraine is not an endless war; it’s only been a year. Besides, it’s important to the Ukrainians even if it isn’t to us. Sorry. This is exactly the type of journalistic sales job that can’t be genuine thought. It’s just an attempt to snow the reader. There is not a single point about our strategic interests, why putin invaded (not even “putin’s bad!”) what is the possible exit (conquer Russia; Russia gives up?). Plus, I’d like to know about the money looted from Ukraine by the bidet family and why a Ukrainian born military officer fomented an impeachment against our president over a phone call to Ukraine. No sale.
51 people like this.

Reply 5 - Posted by: Heil Liberals 2/22/2023 12:24:46 PM (No. 1409278)
FTA - Likewise, Fox News commentator Tomi Lahren tweeted, “We can’t fight this war for you for eternity!!!” I’m not sure which war we are fighting for them and, to my knowledge, Zelensky has not requested anything beyond funding and weapons. Let me ask this question: Does anyone really think we don't have boots on the ground in Ukraine? That does not mean in direct combat, but in logistical supply and training. We have special forces operators all over the globe right now helping to fight wars that are not ours. Anyone who thinks we don't have military assets in Ukraine right now is delusional. As long as my tax dollars go towards supporting the dog and pony show known as the Ukranian government with that Bozo Zelensky, then you're damn right I'm fighting it. Treasure is not the sacrifice of life and limb, but it's enough to consider it fighting. After all, isn't that what every damn one of those who support this suicide mission say? "We need to fight the Russians!" That sure as hell isn't a Royal We. That's all of us.
18 people like this.

Reply 6 - Posted by: Californian 2/22/2023 12:30:59 PM (No. 1409286)
I read it. It's nonsense. His arguments are: 1) we have wasted more money than this before so let's burn another $100 billion. It's just a rounding error he says. I don't have 100 billion dollars. Give it to me. It's no big deal, right? Round that error into my pocket. 2) Ukraine is our business. We are the world's police. If we hadn't been isolationist then 9/11 and Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened. This is so incredibly historically ignorant it has to be intention. We were bombed -because- we got involved in Japan's business and opposed them everywhere they went. We were bombed again -because- we were involved in the Middle East and opposed Islamic terrorists and their state level supporters. This is pure gas light. 3) He says it can't escalate into a nuclear war because previous proxy wars didn't. More nonsense. History might echo but it does not repeat. Every event is different. In this case if Putin loses he is likely to get strung up by his own command staff. None of his historical examples were that dire for the losing side in previous wars. Every single time the nuclear powers mix it up is another chance for a nuclear strike be it intentional or through confusion and miscommunication in the fog of war. I am unwilling to take -any- risk of everyone dying to help the corrupt anti-democratic Ukraine fight off the Russian dictatorship. Crazy crazy crazy 4) his sub heading doesn't match his words here. What he actually says is this is a continuation of the Cold War and has nothing to do with Ukraine and everything to do with Russia. I don't care about Russia. They're a broken shell, a mere shadow of the Soviet Union surviving off the rusting remnants of their former power. We won, they lost. The Cold War is over. Russia is nothing but a giant gas station for the Europeans who still maintains a bunch of weapons their former selves built. They are nothing and no threat to the West. This guy's arguments are ridiculous gas lightning nonsense. We do not belong in Ukraine. If they want to -buy- weapons from us then sure, why not? We're already the world's largest arms exporter every year for the last several decades, what's a few more sold to Ukraine? But dumping $100 billion on them (so far) for free and holding them up as an example of a great democracy under threat is wildly outrageous garbage from start to end. Not one drop of blood and not one penny. This is all about 2 broken states finishing off old business while Joe gets his 10% and the last of the Cold War warriors in the DoD and State Department get the war against Russia they always wanted and couldn't have.
29 people like this.

Reply 7 - Posted by: Califedup 2/22/2023 12:31:28 PM (No. 1409289)
This article is a steaming pile of deep state, neo con, communist death democrat crap. Not one more damn dime of our money should be sent to Ukraine. Let the Europeans sort out their own damn messes. Besides it is glaringly obvious that this is just a money laundering operation to funnel huge sums of money back into the pockets of the communist death democrats and their allies, the republicans in Congress. Imagine the kickbacks being paid out by all these defense contractors. No more foreign wars. Period.
24 people like this.

Reply 8 - Posted by: snakeoil 2/22/2023 12:48:10 PM (No. 1409299)
What most Americans want is for the war to end. It's not going to end until the Z man and the P man sit down and talk. Who will win? No one. No one wins a war featuring massive loss of life and destruction of property. Having spent hours filling out my tax forms for 2022, am particularly incensed by the notion that the $ 117 billion that Quid Pro Joe gave to the Z man is inconsequential. Back during WWII we gave plenty of aid to Russia and China. How did they repay us? We need to return to isolationism and stop being the world's policeman. Charity begins at home.
13 people like this.

Reply 9 - Posted by: Mofongo 2/22/2023 12:50:09 PM (No. 1409303)
Closed indeed! When did diplomacy die for this country?
8 people like this.

Reply 10 - Posted by: Sanchin 2/22/2023 1:21:51 PM (No. 1409322)
The pros and con of supporting Ukraine or opposing Ukraine along with the reasons why this war began are out there for all to see and judge for themselves. One just has to look and this article brings up a few points but it is certainly not definitive or complete. BUT at this point it does not matter War is here today We The United States are an active participant (albeit off the battlefield in terms of boots on the ground). This will become more severe before it gets better. Today China pledged its support to Russia (Even after Mrs. Lindsey and Blinken warned and threatened China against doing so). There is no moral high ground in supporting Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian government is tied deeply to Neo Nazis. Again tat is not to say all Ukrainians are but moral standings have been eliminated by this fact. I addition America instigated this conflict back in 2014 with the purpose of bullying and weakening Russia. This has been admitted to. But Realize this is a threat that goes beyond Ukraine for Russia and they will not accept defeat without going down without a fight. So the the only question is are you prepared to die or send your kids to die for Ukraine? My answer is a resounding no!!
11 people like this.

Reply 11 - Posted by: udanja99 2/22/2023 1:36:05 PM (No. 1409332)
I get the need for Russia to be kept in check, but I believe that it’s up to Ukraine’s neighbors to help them. Interesting how the Europeans, both East and West, can never manage to protect their own interests and ALWAYS turn to us. As long as we have American vets waiting forever for medical care at the VA and/or sleeping under bridges, not another penny should be sent to Ukraine. America first! Especially our vets.
12 people like this.

Reply 12 - Posted by: AmericaYes 2/22/2023 2:03:41 PM (No. 1409357)
Biden and his woke team have no idea of what it means to" win" the war or how to achieve it. Nor do they have any idea how to force a peace settlement. Biden just makes ever more bellicose statements and throws more money and more sophisticated weapons into the fray. The author addresses none of these issues. Without that, he leaves us just as Biden does with an endless war that escalates toward WWIII
5 people like this.

Reply 13 - Posted by: jimincalif 2/22/2023 2:25:50 PM (No. 1409370)
Our foreign war track record isn’t very good. Wilson really stepped in it bringing us into WWI, a European war, much like other European wars, they fight, eventually run out of young male cannon fodder, call a truce, redraw the borders where they stopped, and go home to breed a new generation of cannon fodder for the next war. We greatly upset the balance of power setting the stage for WWII, which The USSR leveraged into effectively annexing all of Eastern Europe, which fed the Cold War and proxy wars like Vietnam. Then the whole war on terror, thinking we could establish stable western style democratic governments there, only to leave at least as big of mess as we found. Yeah, I get the argument that we can’t isolate ourselves entirely from the world, but i don’t see that this compels us to back Ukraine. A simpler foreign policy might be “we will trade with you, we will leave you alone, but attack us and we will annihilate you.” We might have to do this, but probably just once. But we don’t have the political will for it.
6 people like this.

Reply 14 - Posted by: red1066 2/22/2023 2:38:50 PM (No. 1409383)
This Ukrainian thing is starting out exactly like Vietnam. We send in weapons. Then we need to send in advisors to train the Ukrainians on the use of the weapons. Then those advisors start getting shot at and killed because the advisors aren't just showing them how to operate the weapons, but when and where meaning at the front lines. So, because our advisors are being shot at, we send in a small military attachment to protect the advisors. Soon that small military attachment isn't enough, and on and on it goes.
7 people like this.

Reply 15 - Posted by: FromTheRight2 2/22/2023 3:06:34 PM (No. 1409399)
If you want to understand the root cause of this war, imagine this: Its 1983. Mexico has just petitioned to join the Warsaw Pact. There are Soviet made tanks and planes just across the Rio Grande. What would the US do? Google "Grenada Invasion" and I think you'll get a good idea. Now just change the players. Putin has been warning about this for 20 years. "Stop moving East" he said, time and again. He may be a bad guy, but we cant say he wasnt pushed...
6 people like this.

Reply 16 - Posted by: SALady 2/22/2023 3:26:03 PM (No. 1409408)
Christopher Skeet and the snarky poster (DVC) can both send all of their own money they want to Ukraine. Nobody is stopping them if they think this is such a "noble" cause. When I look at my fellow citizens suffering here (East Palestine, homeless veterans, small businesses destroyed by government overreach because of Covid the last few years, etc), combined with a massive deficit, massive inflation, and the current recession we are all suffering through, I simply can't justify sending billions of our tax dollars, and billions of dollars worth of weapons, to a country that we have no business taking sides on in this war. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We have no treaties with them promising to come to their defense. Nothing. Zero, zilch, nada!!!! All we are doing is putting our own children, grandchildren, and probably great-grandchildren in debt that they will never be able to dig out of. And if this keep accelerating at the pace it is going, we are getting closer to a very nuclear WW-III. And anyone who doesn't think we will face the impact of WW-III on our own soil is in for a very rude awakening. And none of it needed to happen, and it certainly never would have happened, if we had had a strong leader as president who would have put a stop to this before the first Russian boots were ever on the ground in Ukraine.
11 people like this.

Reply 17 - Posted by: Italiano 2/22/2023 3:28:32 PM (No. 1409411)
Sorry. No sale here. Not even close.
9 people like this.

Reply 18 - Posted by: Rinktum 2/22/2023 4:05:11 PM (No. 1409417)
Call me crazy, but I don’t think a drop of American blood should be shed in Ukraine or many of the other places our troops are stationed around the world. Who knows where they are all? Does Joe or the Congress. I do believe we should know that too. Push out a world map next time Biden speaks and insert pushpins in every nation and show us. I don’t think the American people would be okay with that. I agree with my friends on here who believe we are, once again, a war chump. We fight and fund wars for other people and that should stop. If they cannot defend themselves, they need to increase their troop strength and defense department budgets and stop relying on us to pay the ultimate price. They are not too good to fight and Americans are tired of watching our men and women come home in body bags. I probably would not be so hard nosed on this issue but look at our country! It is teetering on the brink of total collapse. Our people need more say in the matter when we send billions of dollars to a corrupt country when Americans are suffering right here at home and are being ignored. Where does Joe get the power to keep sending billions? And to fail to demand an accounting of the money sent there is a slap in the face to every tax payer. I am so done with Americans making sacrifices for everyone else while they sit on the sidelines physically and financially. Enough is enough.
9 people like this.

Reply 19 - Posted by: Kate318 2/22/2023 5:13:59 PM (No. 1409434)
It is astonishing to me how anyone can be so blind to the reality of the mass corruption and money laundering that have been going on in Ukraine for decades, and the reasons behind this war. It is also astonishing to me how anyone can be ok with coming perilously close to World War III, pushed by a global cabal whose only goal is to see you dead by whatever means. Perhaps asking oneself WHY Joe Biden and all the usual suspects support this war might be a good start.
8 people like this.

Reply 20 - Posted by: aliciacolon 2/22/2023 5:27:37 PM (No. 1409441)
We have all been duped. Ukraine is a cesspool of corruption and while I thought Russia was wrong to invade, it's no different than our Cuba crisis in 1962. No one wants nukess next door but inviting the Ukraine to NATO means exactly that. Watch and learn.
4 people like this.

Reply 21 - Posted by: doctorfixit 2/22/2023 6:42:43 PM (No. 1409475)
Wag the dog. When Democrats are cornered they start another war. They can rely on warmongers like Lindsey Graham to respond to the dog whistles. It pays to have the Pentagon backing you when you are spreading the lie that the US public is on the brink of "insurrection". The CIA lied to America for 70 years and slandered the Russian people unrelentingly when there was not a snowball's chance in hell that Russia was ever going to attack the US. I will never, ever forgive the US government for scaring the crap out of little kids in the 50s & 60s. As if cowering under our desks would have saved us. Biden's evil is absolute. He is desperate for new distractions as his COVID crimes can no longer be covered up. Like any autocrat psychopath, Biden will not hesitate to bring on any level of destruction to the American people to feed his narcissism.
4 people like this.

Reply 22 - Posted by: DVC 2/22/2023 7:22:22 PM (No. 1409517)
Re #9, diplomacy? LOL! Diplomacy worked great for Chamberlain in 1938, didn't. Sucker Chamberlain thought that Hitler was reasonable, and could be trusted. Frankly, Putin is not reasonable and cannot be trusted in the slightest. He invade Georgia, and took half the country. Putin invaded Chechnya and He installed a puppet government in Belarus, which he controls. Putin has as much as announced that he intends to take over and control essentially all the countries that were once part of the Soviet Union, clearly he thinks that Russia has some right to rule over anyone unfortunate enough to live next to Russia. I see this is very analogous to the French helping us in our revolution against England. We would never have been free if it hadn't been for French weapons and lots of French troops, and the French navy blockading the Chesapeake Bay at a critical time. And yet, so many Americans, benefactors in freedom of the help from another country, would deny this kind of help....WITHOUT any troops, without any American blood being spilled. I find the anti-freedom rhetoric to be just sad to read.
1 person likes this.

Reply 23 - Posted by: Californian 2/22/2023 7:54:07 PM (No. 1409544)
16, no, no, no, no, no. Being opposed to getting involved in some ridiculous Asian land war does not make us pro-Putin. That's a DNC talking point. We are opposed to getting involved because it's dumb. We have zero strategic interest in whether Ukraine is run by the corrupt authoritarian comedian or by the Russian authoritarian ex-KGB thug. We have no business in this. We promised the old Ukraine help. This is the new and unrelated corrupt anti-democratic Ukraine. We owe these clowns nothing.
3 people like this.

Reply 24 - Posted by: Italiano 2/22/2023 8:12:03 PM (No. 1409557)
If the solution included administering Zelesky and his wife the Ceaucescu treatment, which they deserve, and installing a somewhat honest government, maybe, but that's not part of the money-laundering plan.
4 people like this.

Reply 25 - Posted by: nerdowell 2/22/2023 8:23:56 PM (No. 1409569)
Joe, the man who caved to the Taliban, suddenly resolves to commit this country to prop up his family's corrupt patron. Of all the promises he's made throughout his disgusting career, this is the one he chooses to keep. Now he has re-opened the Cold War. We can now look forward to the steady bleeding of our best and brightest in future proxy wars between client states as we settle into the game reciprocal reprisals. Joe bombed a pipeline that could have kept western Europe supplied with energy indefinitely. He converted billions of dollars of investments to a pile of rusting pipe at the bottom of the ocean. Does anyone imagine there won't be consequences? Only a democrat can think that. It seems that perpetual, low level war-fare is the only solution they can imagine to keep our economy productive, our people employed, and Wall Street happy.
3 people like this.

Reply 26 - Posted by: beancounter 2/22/2023 11:09:34 PM (No. 1409667)
Jimmy Dore lays out the reasons not to support Ukraine in a couple of minutes.
1 person likes this.

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26 replies
Posted by Dreadnought 9/25/2023 12:42:41 PM Post Reply
Senator Robert Menendez (D., N.J.) maintained his innocence during a Monday morning press conference, insisting that the extensive corruption allegations laid out in a federal indictment unsealed Friday are false. Federal investigators found nearly half-a-million dollars in cash and roughly $100,000 in gold bars when they searched his New Jersey home in June of last year. The New Jersey lawmaker insisted during the press conference that the cash was withdrawn from his personal savings account in case of emergencies. “For 30 years I have withdrawn thousands of dollars in cash from my personal savings account which I have kept for emergencies, and because of the history
Democratic Mayor Proposes Government-Owned
Grocery Store For ‘Racial Justice’
26 replies
Posted by Imright 9/24/2023 8:20:28 PM Post Reply
Chicago’s Democratic mayor has announced a partnership with a far-left non-profit to advance his proposal of a government-owned grocery store, which he argues is needed for the sake of “racial justice.” Mayor Brandon Johnson said in a press release this month that the city-owned grocery store — which would be the largest of its kind in the U.S. — is needed to address the exit of corporate grocery stores and promote “food equity.”“[F]ood access and security link directly to environmental and racial justice,” Johnson’s office said in a press release, adding that “37% of Black residents and 29% of Latine/x residents are food insecure,
Michelle Obama to Rake in More Than $700,000
for One-Hour Lecture on “Diversity and
Inclusion” in Munich
24 replies
Posted by Imright 9/25/2023 3:57:49 PM Post Reply
Former First Lady Michelle Obama will be paid more than $700,000 for a one-hour lecture on “diversity and inclusion” in Munich. Nothing to see here. Move along. According to reports, Michelle Obama traveled from Mallorca to Munich to deliver a one-hour speech on “diversity and inclusion” at the “Britz & Pretzels” conference. Michelle Obama will be paid 700,000 euros for her appearance. Sounds legit. (X) Excerpt from German newspaper Bild: Now she’s swapping paella for pretzels! After arriving in a private jet, Michelle checked into a luxury hotel in Munich.
Did Bidenomics kill the American dream?
Homes and cars are becoming increasingly
unaffordable for the middle class
23 replies
Posted by ladydawgfan 9/24/2023 6:12:27 PM Post Reply
Average Americans are finding homes and cars increasingly unaffordable as inflation from high government spending raises prices and degrades purchasing power. Half of consumers are being priced out of the car market as the cost of a monthly car loan payment is far exceeding what an average American can afford, while the home affordability index has fallen from a 169.9 point average in 2020 to 87.8 points as of July, according to the National Association of Realtors. One key driver of the rising expenses is inflation, which peaked at 9.1% in June 2022 and is linked to high government spending under the Biden administration,
Trump 'must die in prison,' MSNBC denizen insists 23 replies
Posted by Hazymac 9/24/2023 11:41:32 AM Post Reply
Far-left MSNBC columnist and radio host Dean Obeidallah, in a recent interview with a reporter from the leftish Mediaite “news” website, stated: “I think Donald Trump must die in prison because I don’t care if he was 45 years old, you should get life in prison if you attempt a coup, and there should be no chance of parole.” Mr. Obeidallah said that, were the former president to “die in prison” for daring to challenge the results of the 2020 election, it would send a much-needed message to the public. That message? “You can’t do this.” Ah. He further explained: “That’s why I think Donald Trump or anyone else who commits a coup, must die
Clyburn: Biden Is ‘Not in Any Trouble
with African-Americans in This Country’
22 replies
Posted by Dreadnought 9/25/2023 12:49:37 AM Post Reply
Representative James Clyburn (D-SC) said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that he guaranteed President Joe Biden was “not in any trouble with African-Americans in this country.” Anchor Kristen Welker said, “As you know, in a close election, every single vote counts and as we laid out, his support among African-Americans, latinos, young voters has dropped. How do you make sure they don’t stay at home, congressman?” Clyburn said, “They will not stay at home. We understand what’s at stake here.” He continued, “The problem with me is I spend too much time studying history, and I see what’s going on here. I know where the playbook
Clyburn: GOP Wants to Impeach Biden for
‘Being a Father to His Son’
21 replies
Posted by Beardo 9/24/2023 3:05:27 PM Post Reply
Representative James Clyburn (D-SC) said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that Republicans opened an impeachment inquiry against President Joe Biden because he was “being a father to his son.” (snip) Clyburn said, “I think it’s appropriate to be a father to your son, and if your son is having a problem, and we all know the history of the problem that Hunter has with addiction, and he is being a father to his son. You don’t impeach a man for being a father to his children.”
DA Investigator Accidentally Shoots Self
in Courthouse Bathroom
21 replies
Posted by Beardo 9/24/2023 2:45:54 PM Post Reply
An investigator with the Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney’s Office accidentally shot herself in the leg inside a courthouse bathroom on Friday. ABC News reported the incident occurred in the same courthouse in which “former President Donald Trump and his co-defendants were arraigned” on charges related to the 2020 presidential election. The incident did not result life-threatening injuries. FOX 5 noted the female investigator was in a “handicap accessible bathroom” on the fourth floor when she shot herself. The name of the investigator has not been released. Former prosecutor Ash Joshi commented on the incident, saying, “It was an accidental shooting, so there is no intent to commit a crime."
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