With centuries-old wood and no fire safeguards, Notre Dame´s attic burned quickly
The Week,
by
Catherine Garcia
Original Article
Posted By: earlybird,
4/18/2019 11:40:49 AM
When the first fire alarm went off at Notre Dame cathedral on Monday evening, a staffer checked the most vulnerable part of the entire structure, the attic, and was relieved to see no flames, Paris prosecutor Rémy Heitz said Tuesday. That didn´t last. Within 23 minutes, the attic was ablaze. Known as "the forest," the attic was full of wooden beams from trees cut down between 1160 and 1170, and over the centuries, they became extremely dry. (Snip) firewalls and sprinkler systems were never installed in order to protect the design of the structure. It was also risky to add
Reply 1 - Posted by:
plomke 4/18/2019 11:44:35 AM (No. 37770)
And once again,the powers that be,ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room...
21 people like this.
Reply 2 - Posted by:
bamapreacher 4/18/2019 11:56:37 AM (No. 37765)
I notice the Slimes had to print a correction that some of the footage they used previously had been of the cathedral in Cologne. Good editing as usual, Slimes.
19 people like this.
Reply 3 - Posted by:
bamboozle 4/18/2019 11:57:23 AM (No. 37773)
With wood that dry and unprotected, it was just a matter of time...construction accident, terrorist attack, lightning strike, sooner or later it was bound to happen. Fire suppression systems are installed in many dangerous environments without setting them ablaze so I fail to understand why this could not have been done here? Fire alarm systems were installed since that is what warned of the fire. Why were they considered safe but not a fire sprinkler system. Sounds like some CYA is going on there to me.
19 people like this.
Reply 4 - Posted by:
dman 4/18/2019 12:03:45 PM (No. 37764)
This is the one area where a faithful restoration would neither be practical nor desirable. Perhaps a lightweight fire-resistant composite might replace actual lumber in this case - along with a functional sprinkler or other active fire retardant system.
That would reduce the risk of another accident - but not a determined arsonist or a 9/11 style aerial attack.
9 people like this.
Reply 5 - Posted by:
curious1 4/18/2019 12:12:48 PM (No. 37779)
While it might not have soaked things, I read reports on Monday that mentioned the roof was wet from a light rain shower they had in Paris on Monday. So if the report is correct I wonder why they stress the ´bone dry´ aspect, when atmospheric humidity would keep even ´850 year old´ exposed wood from being ´bone dry´. And no mention of the rain. Think they´re trying to sell something?
9 people like this.
Reply 6 - Posted by:
chance_232 4/18/2019 12:23:35 PM (No. 37776)
I completely understand why they wouldnt want to install something that would damage something ancient.
However......... this is the 22nd century. We have wireless fire alarm systems. We have fire supression systems that dont rely on water. But those systems would have been expensive. Because they didnt want to spend the money to protect 57 acres of ancient wood, they no longer have 57 acres of ancient wood. I guarantee this was a bottom line budgetting issue, because its way more expensive to install stuff in historical facilities.
Congratulations..... because ya´ll didnt want to protect a priceless ancient artifact, you now no longer have said ancient artifact.
Suggestion.......suck it up and spend the money and do it right when protecting lives and priceless property.
15 people like this.
Reply 7 - Posted by:
Pepper Tree 4/18/2019 12:28:00 PM (No. 37774)
Muslims in the West protect their own but refuse to police themselves. Therefore destruction will continue until every one of them in the Western world is rounded up and put out. India finally wised up and reached that same conclusion in 1947. Hence Pakistan.
Muslims have nothing we need. Let ‘em sort out their Lilliputian problems in their own territories.
13 people like this.
Reply 8 - Posted by:
earlybird 4/18/2019 12:33:46 PM (No. 37775)
Re #5, see photo here of what was called The Forest. The attic at Notre Dame. The wood roof was then covered with lead sheathing panels.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/nortre-dame-fire-oak-wood-trnd/index.html
12 people like this.
Reply 9 - Posted by:
JHHolliday 4/18/2019 12:48:45 PM (No. 37780)
#6 is correct. I am retired from the insurance business. We have very sophisticated systems now that can suppress fires without water in computer rooms, museums, etc. Quite expensive but the attic could have been protected.
15 people like this.
Reply 10 - Posted by:
Bur Oak 4/18/2019 1:15:43 PM (No. 37768)
What was the ignition source?
12 people like this.
Reply 11 - Posted by:
joew9 4/18/2019 1:30:36 PM (No. 37777)
I have a theory that construction scaffolding causes fires. It must be made from flint stone and sulfur. It seems to happen all the time.
10 people like this.
Reply 12 - Posted by:
Bluefindad 4/18/2019 1:54:12 PM (No. 37769)
Curious - instead of sprinklers, why not put in a system that would flood the attic with inert gas?
12 people like this.
Reply 13 - Posted by:
DVC 4/18/2019 2:30:55 PM (No. 37771)
Don´t BS an engineer, it won´t work. It could have been done if they wanted it. Hire a decent engineer, no excuses. I have spent time researching fire control systems for my remote cabin in the Colorado mountains.
If they wanted sprinklers in the attic, and the "deal breaker" was that they could have no normal electrical wiring (220VAC European std) in the attic, they could have put in place air pressure controlled sprinkler valves. Or, the simplest kind of sprinkler heads use a bismuth alloy or glass bulb fusible links which will melt at very low temps (165F typically) and activates water flow through the sprinkler head. Zero electrical power.
If you insist on remote control of sprinklers for some reason, you can do all the remote valve actuation you need with air pressure via small diameter stainless steel piping.
If you insist on having sensor systems, temperature sensing and optical fire sensors can, today, perhaps not 30 or 40 years ago, be run via extremely low voltage systems (5V) which, even exposed, are almost impossible to cause a fire.
And, if wiring for those 5V sensor systems were routed inside metal conduits, normal in commercial applicatoins, they are exceptionally fire resistant, essentially impossible to cause a fire. Any short circuit is 1) very low energy 2) entirely inside the metal shell, so immediately will short to the shell, and the circuit breaker will interrupt the very low power, harmlessly stopping it.
The only application that requires high power is moving the water control valves, and that can all be done by air pressure, NO high power electricity required. Less convenient? Yes, but all the equipment, valves, and controllers are commercial standard equipment today. No new tech needed.
Excuses are not reasons.
13 people like this.
Reply 14 - Posted by:
swarfer 4/18/2019 4:04:26 PM (No. 37778)
It hadn´t burned in 900 years since the days of candles. It burned because there was an ignition source. What was the source? Candles?
20 people like this.
Reply 15 - Posted by:
Rumblehog 4/18/2019 5:40:35 PM (No. 37772)
This is a wake-up call to all Museums and Collections in the world to review their disaster preparation.
10 people like this.
Reply 16 - Posted by:
DVC 4/18/2019 7:57:16 PM (No. 37767)
#5, that is the outside, a copper skin. The inside, all oak structure is always dry, regardless of how much it rains.
9 people like this.
Reply 17 - Posted by:
Mike22 4/18/2019 9:45:30 PM (No. 37766)
Water based spray on fire retardants for unpainted wood are reputed to work well.
And in an unoccupied space, rather than sprinklers, a pressurized CO2 or halon system?
Solar panels behind those big windows charging batteries for power?
10 people like this.
Reply 18 - Posted by:
DVC 4/19/2019 1:50:15 AM (No. 37763)
All good ideas, #17.
CO2 is great. Avoids the inevitable water damage from sprinkler systems, and cleans itself up.
Several sources are reporting that the roof skin was lead rather than the common, and nearly as durable, copper.
8 people like this.
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The Forest (the attic) so dry that even the addition of electrical wlring for automatic sprinklers was deemed too risky.
The New York Times article, longer and more detailed, and explaining why the roof construction and stone interior ceiling made it so difficult to fight the fire, is here:
"Notre-Dame Attic Was Known as ‘the Forest.’ And It Burned Like One."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/world/europe/why-notre-dame-fire-spread.html
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