Crashed jets reportedly lacked key safety features because Boeing charged extra for them
CNBC,
by
Emma Newburger
Original Article
Posted By: earlybird,
3/21/2019 4:37:07 PM
Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia lacked two safety features in their cockpits because the company charged extra to install them. The features could have helped pilots detect erroneous readings, which some experts believe might be connected to the planes’ failures, The New York Times reports. Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, which crashed within five months of each other, were brand new but were not equipped with an angle of attack indicator or an angle of attack disagree light, the paper said.
Reply 1 - Posted by:
PlayItAgain 3/21/2019 4:48:10 PM (No. 8437)
Hmmm. This sounds fishy to me.
I suspect there is some other problem that has been identified and Boeing is using this crazy little light as a way to distract us from that problem. I think it´s easier for Boeing to take the heat for this missing light than it will be if the real root cause is revealed.
14 people like this.
Reply 2 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 5:02:50 PM (No. 8439)
This all seems to be pretty much BS. Remember, it´s the New York Times which hates America. They would love to see Boeing grovel because they represent America. The problem seems to be an erroneous signal generated by the MCAS. The MCAS is another of the automated systems all large jet manufacturers want to incorporate into jets to make them "easier" to fly. If I understand this right, if the MCAS senses a stall condition, it runs the stab to push the nose over to help with a stall recovery. There is a disconnect switch and a procedure for this the pilots should know.
19 people like this.
Reply 3 - Posted by:
Lawsy0 3/21/2019 5:06:00 PM (No. 8425)
Fishy ain´t the word for it. My B.S. meter is clicking in the red zone! Let´s blame everything we can except pilot error.
26 people like this.
Reply 4 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 5:06:33 PM (No. 8436)
Contd..
As much as the European press and apparently the NYT wants this to be an evil Boeing situation, I am guessing that it is more an under trained 3rd world pilot situation where the guys should have used their pilot skills to disconnect the stab trim and hand fly the perfectly good airplane instead of looking at each other and asking "What is this crazy thing doing?" God forbid they click off the autopilot every once in a while.
26 people like this.
Reply 5 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 5:12:26 PM (No. 8429)
Contd...
There is already AOA symbology on their PFD. It is integrated into their AHRS. Depending on who supplied the avionics package, it is depicted in different ways. A stand alone AOA is usually used in less sophisticated airplanes that have a narrow stall window. I have used it in small Air Force jets with big engines and thin wings. For the NYT to act like this is criminal on Boeing´s part is par for their penchant for Fake News.
24 people like this.
Reply 6 - Posted by:
DVC 3/21/2019 5:20:19 PM (No. 8440)
If it is not part of the required equipment list, cheapo airlines, who really do not care much or know much about safety, will almost certainly not buy it.
If it was not part of the required equipment, then the aircraft met FAA certification standards without it. Apparently first world pilots have not had any significant issues, a few unexpected autopilot responses have been reported, but quickly fixed by pushing the autopilot disconnect button on the wheel, not much different than disconnecting your cruise control on your car.
Poorly trained pilots, common in the 3rd world, can really run into problems flying complex, powerful aircraft.
Airbus has pretty much decided that their company policy is tending towards selling drones to idiots. They want the "pilots" to just punch in the three letter designator for the destination airport, taxi to the runway and then keep their darned (incompetent) hands off of the controls. Of course, sometimes things go awry and the "pilots" who haven´t actually flown the aircraft in a LONG time, just sat and watched, aren´t sure what to do.
Boeing has been much more of a pilot´s aircraft. You have to actually know how to fly. They have been getting heavy pressure from China and other places with few skilled pilots to make the aircraft far more automatic. We will see if this is a ´halfway automatic´ deal that didn´t go far enough to cover for the 3rd world pilots. Excessive reliance on the autopilot, and an unwillingness to turn it off if it is not doing what you want, is likely at play.
Putting incompetents in the cockpit is the root cause here, I am sure. One report says the pilot in one crash had 200 hours flight time. If that is total time that is not good.
39 people like this.
Reply 7 - Posted by:
DVC 3/21/2019 5:25:08 PM (No. 8413)
One report I have seen indicates that the MCAS system was given full authority to trim the nose down as needed, depending on what the data from the angle of attack sensor was telling it.
If the AOA sensor is bad, the only solution is to turn off the system, it will be doing the wrong things, since it has bad data. Any skilled pilot should know this.
If these guys were scared of turning off the automatic systems, or did not know how.....is that Boeing´s fault.
Runaway trim is a very real emergency. It can do exactly the same thing, adjusting the stabilizer incorrectly. The pilot must recognize it and shut it down. Pilots have to have skills, awareness and calm when things go to hell. This is true of any aircraft.
29 people like this.
Reply 8 - Posted by:
Ida Lou Pino 3/21/2019 5:39:31 PM (No. 8427)
Here´s the real problem - -
- - Ethiopians and Indonesians trying to operate jet-powered airlines.
Was this not predictable?
27 people like this.
Reply 9 - Posted by:
SALady 3/21/2019 5:43:00 PM (No. 8415)
Wow, can you imagine the gallon of drool coming from all the ambulance-chasing lawyers who just discovered that they can not only sue Boeing, but also the airline for not paying for those safely features!!!!!
Christmas came in March for those sleazebag ambulance-chasing attorneys!!!!!!!
10 people like this.
Reply 10 - Posted by:
Penny Spencer 3/21/2019 6:04:49 PM (No. 8426)
Bingo, #´s 2, 4, 5 and 6! The much more difficult problem is whether this very politically incorrect solution will ever see the light of day, and if so, how long it will be. My guess is Col. Mustard in the library with the lead pipe. IOW, never.
18 people like this.
Reply 11 - Posted by:
bad-hair 3/21/2019 6:13:50 PM (No. 8422)
Sorry, I´m a pilot who has flown with many pilots and generally speaking, Indonesians and Ethiopians can fly. Can´t say much beyond that except people who automatically dismiss these people as somehow mentally deficient to fly are probably mentally deficient to opinionate. Boeing has a problem. They will fix it because they have to.
12 people like this.
Reply 12 - Posted by:
davew 3/21/2019 6:24:55 PM (No. 8414)
The same angle of attack anomaly occurred the day before on the Lion Air flight and the jump pilot had no problem identifying it and disengaging the trim motor. He didn´t need any disagree light to figure it out so why did the next crew not get the memo? If the nose is low and the airspeed is increasing you don´t need a stupid sensor to tell you that you´re not in a stall.
14 people like this.
Reply 13 - Posted by:
HPmatt 3/21/2019 6:35:57 PM (No. 8420)
Southwest Airlines still flying 737-800 Max jets. Daughter flew on one from Austin to PHX to John Wayne yesterday. I guess SWair has the issue all figured out....
10 people like this.
Reply 14 - Posted by:
BigGeorgeTX 3/21/2019 7:26:51 PM (No. 8423)
I´m sorry, but this is ridiculous. Safety features should never be OPTIONAL on passenger planes.
9 people like this.
Reply 15 - Posted by:
lakerman1 3/21/2019 7:40:16 PM (No. 8424)
Sully, the hero pilot who landed on the Hudson River, testified about low pay and inexperienced pilots on regional airlines, and not long after, two inexperienced pilots stalled and crashed a regional airline aircraft near Buffalo, NY. He also suggested that pilots shut off the auto pilot from time to time to time, to maintain/sharpen piloting skills.
Sully is a national treasure - should be running the FAA. Instead, people like Tom Daschle´s wife are appointed to the FAA.
13 people like this.
Reply 16 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 7:40:28 PM (No. 8431)
Great #11. If you have flown with them as you say you have, then you have flown with the sons of the elite who were pushed through flight schools, and can´t be corrected or down graded in their schooling. What you are saying is NOT what I have seen up close in 35 years of flying with and instructing or generally dealing with third world pilots. Sorry if that stings your sensibilities, but it turns out now the Captain had not even gone through simulator training on the Max. Why? Because he was one of the elite. I suspect you are a SJW troll.
23 people like this.
Reply 17 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 7:42:29 PM (No. 8438)
#14, it is the NYT. It is a false story. The airplane HAD AOA information. The pilots did not recognize what was staring them in the face.
14 people like this.
Reply 18 - Posted by:
lawdoc 3/21/2019 7:57:31 PM (No. 8421)
It´s fun to just blame it on the 3rd world country´s pilots, but it is not so simple. Often, during instrument conditions, one cannot see the horizon to make an early determination that the plane´s attitude of wrong. My understanding is that this MCAS system was unique to other aircraft in that even when flying the plane manually, if the sensors determined the nose was high, it would force the nose down against the pilot´s efforts to pull it up. And pilots are trained not to trust their senses when in IFR conditions, but to trust the instruments. So while pilot error may have contributed, it appears to me that the Boeing system shared significantly in the problem.
11 people like this.
Reply 19 - Posted by:
DVC 3/21/2019 8:25:12 PM (No. 8430)
Actually, few to no airlines use AOA info in their training. An old family friend who retired as a United 747 Captain, retired naval aviator with a physics degree was always asking United why they didn´t use AOA, back in the 60s. the sensor was on the aircraft for the stall pusher, just no readout.
The USN has used AOA as the PRIMARY landing instrument in their jets for many decades, because the approach and takeoff AOA is ALWAYS THE SAME, regardless of temperature, aircraft weight or anything else. AOA is so important to the USN that the aircraft nose landing gear has three lights on it, visible to the LSO, repeating the data the AOA system is showing the pilot. Can´t BS the LSO, he sees what you see.
So, even if AOA is available on the pilot´s display, few (none?) airlines teach pilots to pay any significant attention to it. They are taught to fly target airspeeds, called V speeds, V1, V2, etc. for critical phases of T.O.s and landings.
The aircraft stall warning uses a AOA sensor, but typically the pilots are NOT using that info, by AIRLINE COMPANY CONVENTION.
9 people like this.
Reply 20 - Posted by:
DVC 3/21/2019 8:32:33 PM (No. 8417)
Bingo, #16. A family member was a USN instructor pilot, had to teach third world pilots. Many were extremely lazy, uninterested in studying or paying attention. One eventually got a really solid hit with a kneeboard to his helmet in flight to get his attention.
They were rich, spoiled kids and knew that no matter what they did, they were going to graduate.
Another family member, also former USN instructor, was training a team of foreign students to operate some special military hardware, working for the hardware company. When the Col in charge was a stupid, lazy student, the company wanted the Col to get the "best student" award. My relative refused, they threatened him, and he said, fire me, then. The best student award went to a really junior guy who worked hard, studied and was smart - and earned it.
Beware 3rd world pilots. A few are good, but many are there by who they know, not what they know.
20 people like this.
Reply 21 - Posted by:
leonardo 3/21/2019 9:13:24 PM (No. 8419)
SO, you´ve got the big bucks for the JET but not enough more for the safety features? Safety features are only too expensive for airlines if passengers other than their immediate family and friends are on board.
13 people like this.
Reply 22 - Posted by:
bassman 3/21/2019 9:35:58 PM (No. 8432)
I still don´t get why they build an airplane that´s designed not to fly properly without a computer program to correct it!
11 people like this.
Reply 23 - Posted by:
Turninggrey 3/21/2019 9:43:17 PM (No. 8434)
#21, sigh. The airplane had the safety equipment. It has an AOA indication on the PFD which is right in front of the pilots face. It is his main instrument. A separate AOA gauge is generally a red/green gauge. Fighter and attack aircraft use it because they fly an AOA for landing. Airlines do not use that method. AOA symbology pops up on the PFD when a modern airliner approaches anything approaching stall speed. It is very apparent. To compliment this system, there is also a "stick shaker" and a computer voice command "Stall,Stall". Even modern fighters have the AOA built into their PFD or HUD. This article is bogus and written by a fool. It is CNBC quoting the NYT.
19 people like this.
Reply 24 - Posted by:
caljeepgirl 3/21/2019 9:47:20 PM (No. 8412)
#13, I also had family flying SW back from Kansas City. So, I checked and discovered that apparently 737-800 planes and 737-Max 8 planes are NOT the same airplane, much to my relief!
12 people like this.
Reply 25 - Posted by:
Skinnydip 3/21/2019 9:57:11 PM (No. 8416)
#13 I flew to Chicago last week on a 737-800. It was definitely not a MAX aircraft. They have all been grounded.
9 people like this.
Reply 26 - Posted by:
ControlFreak 3/21/2019 9:59:39 PM (No. 8418)
My nephew, who is a pilot for a major airline, has been flying these planes. I didn´t need to learn this, but at least they are grounded for now.
10 people like this.
Reply 27 - Posted by:
Strike3 3/21/2019 11:57:36 PM (No. 8435)
Now there´s a whopper for ya. I didn´t pay attention to my speedometer, Officer, because the speed disagree light wasn´t on. Come on Boeing you can do better than that. These were brand new planes.
8 people like this.
Reply 28 - Posted by:
Rumblehog 3/22/2019 12:07:14 AM (No. 8441)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-crash-exclusive/exclusive-cockpit-voice-recorder-of-doomed-lion-air-jet-depicts-pilots-frantic-search-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB
Well, well, well, buried in this article we find this nugget:
"The Indian-born captain was silent at the end, all three sources said, while the Indonesian first officer said “Allahu Akbar”, or “God is greatest”, a common Arabic phrase in the majority-Muslim country that can be used to express excitement, shock, praise or distress."
15 people like this.
Reply 29 - Posted by:
DVC 3/22/2019 12:15:56 AM (No. 8428)
Or, #28, when you are committing an act of intentional terrorism, perhaps?.
The airlines ( Boeing´s customers, esp 3rd world one are continuously pushing for more automatic flying, because they have real trouble finding any decent pilots. Boeing is trying to satisfy customers by adding more automation.
It may well be that this particular add-on was not as completely idiot resistant as it needs to be. They keep coming up with better idiots.
8 people like this.
Reply 30 - Posted by:
MickTurn 3/22/2019 8:34:00 PM (No. 8433)
SO boing, how does it feel to go broke?
6 people like this.